Verdant vs Pscythe (PvZ)

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AntLion: Союзник: Artanis (P0): Dragoon
Frenchmxjf: Yоu've hеаrd thаt it's wisе tо lеarn frоm еxрeriеnce, but it is wisеr to lеаrn from the exрeriеnce of othеrs.
CharsimIV: Он даже не запускается
Амир: Ошибся, ZvZ, пишите как отбивать это
Pocket: kidding u were bad AF I did everyhing LOL
Pocket: thx u were also not so bad HangPierr

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Replay info[Back]
Player 1
Protoss <L2D> Verdant Logo
Player 2
Zerg Pscythe Logo
Game type 1x1
Winner show
Length 42:08
United States US
League No data [Custom Game]
Version SC2 ver.
Match date 18th of July 2022 at 01:57
Upload date 19th of July 2022 at 08:16
+ 0 -
If you have VOD link for this replay then: [Add VOD]
Download replay (195.7 Kb)
Downloads: 28
CC Battle For Slayn
No map yet =(
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66 с Verdant Всем I mean the ui is just superb
76 с Verdant Всем this is lightyears ahead of anything else I've seen made in the editor
83 с Verdant Всем it just works
86 с Pscythe Всем It's all copied from HotS
98 с Verdant Всем yeah but have you actually tried doing like any of this
102 с Verdant Всем it's a nightmare
109 с Pscythe Всем yeah I know, it's not easy to port
126 с Verdant Союзникам let me look at one of these other lanes
130 с Verdant Всем are there XP orbs?
136 с Pscythe Всем apparently not
140 с Verdant Всем that's good
142 с Pscythe Всем not really a big deal
151 с Verdant Всем orbs are a huge deal, it's great that they're gone
156 с Pscythe Всем why?
168 с Verdant Всем it's one of the worst changes blizzard made to hots
177 с Pscythe Всем ?
179 с Verdant Всем very little downside to grouping as 5 and roaming for kills
188 с Pscythe Всем they don't change the game that much
192 с Verdant Всем because you still have a chance to get some portion of the XP if it doesn't work out
194 с Verdant Всем they do
203 с Verdant Всем balling up as 5 should be very risky
213 с Pscythe Всем do you mean the big xp orbs or the 25% ones that stick around?
224 с Verdant Всем I mean the ones that stick around after the mob dies if you're not there
230 с Pscythe Всем yeah those barely do anything
231 с Verdant Всем that you can pick up after the wave is gone
235 с Pscythe Всем they're pretty much just placebo
238 с Verdant Всем what o.O
241 с Verdant Всем no they're not
259 с Pscythe Всем if you actually watch a replay you get a completely insignificant fraction of your xp from them
271 с Verdant Всем there's no such thing as an insignificant fraction
280 с Verdant Всем it'd have to be like, less than a quarter of a percent all game
289 с Verdant Всем compared to what you'd get being in the lane
298 с Verdant Всем those things completely changed the dynamic of how most maps are played
304 с Pscythe Всем says who?
308 с Verdant Всем me, lol
331 с Verdant Всем you think it's healthy gameplay that instead of knowing how to split and manage waves, most teams just roam as 4 and double soak, or 4-1?
363 с Pscythe Всем well if you actually count up how much xp you get from them, it's so small that it doesn't matter for 90% of games
370 с Verdant Всем it matters
380 с Verdant Всем you shouldn't be able to get XP without being there for the minion death
392 с Pscythe Всем I mean, I challenge you to send me a replay where those globes swung a game them
396 с Pscythe Всем then*
401 с Verdant Всем they significantly change every match
419 с Pscythe Всем well then the challenge should be easy
420 с Verdant Всем the point of having multiple lanes is so that you have to choose which one to be in
432 с Verdant Всем you shouldn't be able to reap the benefits of being in 2 lanes at once
438 с Verdant Всем why would you ever want that lol
448 с Verdant Всем why even have multiple lanes at that point
451 с Pscythe Всем what do you mean you shouldn't be able to be in 2 lanes at once?
466 с Verdant Всем in hots, right now, the dominant strategy on towers of doom
469 с Verdant Всем is to run 4 bot
476 с Verdant Всем and one person double soaks mid/top
479 с Pscythe Всем yeah
486 с Pscythe Всем and that was true before globes
490 с Verdant Всем reaping the benefits of being in both lanes at once
495 с Verdant Всем it's more forgiving with globes
507 с Verdant Всем it shouldn't be a thing at all though
511 с Pscythe Всем doublesoaking either with your offlaner or with the 4-man has been dominant since the game came out
524 с Verdant Всем the point of multiple lanes is so that you have to choose which one to be in
538 с Verdant Всем if you can get rewarded for both at once there's no point
550 с Pscythe Всем the point of multiple lanes is to provide multiple focal points on the map that you must dedicate resources to at any given time
556 с Verdant Всем yeah
564 с Verdant Всем and if you can be in multiple focal points at once, there is no choice to make
576 с Pscythe Всем other mobas have so little map mobility that you physically cannot walk between lanes fast enough to get all the minions
577 с Verdant Всем the point of strategy games is that choice should have downside
585 с Verdant Всем if I choose to be here, the downside is that I am not there
597 с Pscythe Всем and that's still the case in hots, it's just different
603 с Verdant Всем yeah that's part of why other mobas have way more players than hots
605 с Pscythe Всем in LoL you have 0 choice
614 с Verdant Всем in LoL you have plenty of choice
624 с Pscythe Всем you pick a lane and park yourself there for several minutes
633 с Verdant Всем you picked like, one of the few things in LoL that actually works haha
633 с Pscythe Всем occasionally rotating to do something else
644 с Pscythe Всем in HotS you are constantly moving around the map
646 с Verdant Всем you are always looking to rotate in LoL
655 с Verdant Всем the problem is that if you don't do it right, you will be punished
658 с Verdant Всем that's good
668 с Verdant Всем in hots there's no opportunity cost for going anywhere
680 с Verdant Всем lowers the skill cap and shrinks the skill gap
699 с Pscythe Всем there is aboslutely oportunity cost for going places, it's just not missing minions
706 с Pscythe Всем or, not always missing minions
712 с Verdant Всем it's very small, that's the problem
718 с Verdant Всем there's no reason for orbs to exist
749 с Pscythe Всем also I don't buy the skill cap argument because even a "lower" skill cap in a moba like HotS is still far and away above what is humanly possible
755 с Pscythe Всем so what difference does that actually make?
768 с Verdant Всем it makes a huge difference
774 с Verdant Всем any bronze can easily double soak in hots
782 с Pscythe Всем that's skill floor, not skill cap
788 с Verdant Всем that's the cap of double soaking
808 с Verdant Всем proper wave management in league is a diamond level skill
812 с Verdant Всем that's what's at stake
828 с Verdant Всем in league you can make diamond just by knowing where to be and how to manage waves
836 с Verdant Всем it's an added layer of complexity
847 с Verdant Всем if there's no downside to a choice, it's not a choice
847 с Pscythe Всем sounds like an added layer of tedium to me
860 с Pscythe Всем I greatly enjoy that hots doesn't have mechanics like that
866 с Pscythe Всем it's why i play it over other mobas
876 с Verdant Всем you can have that, but you can't also have a competitive game
881 с Pscythe Всем uh
882 с Pscythe Всем yes you can
890 с Pscythe Всем the skills to be competitive are just different
892 с Verdant Всем if a game is hyper casual and easy to master, with a low skill cap and no skill gap
899 с Verdant Всем it can't also be competitive
910 с Pscythe Всем we had HGC for a while, no one was at the skill cap of HotS
914 с Pscythe Всем no one
916 с Pscythe Всем not a single person
921 с Pscythe Всем was even close to the skill cap
925 с Verdant Всем hots never really had a chance
944 с Verdant Всем went the way of most blizzard games, mismanaged into oblivion xD
951 с Pscythe Всем well yeah
960 с Verdant Всем the talent pool all playing other mobas is no excuse to have bad design though
1007 с Verdant Всем I think it may be the loading of sounds causing these hitches
1009 с Verdant Всем hard to say
1044 с Pscythe Всем diablo's Q sucks in this version
1063 с Pscythe Всем but it's not really fixable
1072 с Verdant Всем point and click stuns are still pretty good
1090 с Pscythe Всем yeah but like, try comboing your Q into E
1100 с Verdant Всем yeah
1114 с Verdant Всем just about any stun is going to be strong though
1121 с Verdant Всем that's the nature of removing someone else's control
1123 с Pscythe Всем it feels way worse than normal diablo
1129 с Verdant Всем normal diablo is busted af xD
1139 с Pscythe Всем he's fine
1161 с Verdant Всем winning by removing control from other players in competitive games is a fairly recent thing
1164 с Verdant Всем imo not a good thing
1179 с Pscythe Всем do you mean in games in general?
1184 с Pscythe Всем or what
1192 с Verdant Всем it's mainly in mobas and arena shooters that have a lot of moba mechanics
1203 с Verdant Всем but older competitive games didn't really have any mechanics like that other than death
1219 с Pscythe Всем I mean it literally all comes from Warcraft 3
1241 с Verdant Всем wc3 had tons of units on screen, stunning a few isn't as game changing as a stun in a moba
1248 с Pscythe Всем yeah exactly
1254 с Pscythe Всем but then DotA 1 existed
1270 с Verdant Всем the stuns are bad in dota too
1277 с Verdant Всем here, watch
1279 с Pscythe Всем and that was based off of WC3, and then the moba genera just exploded
1290 с Pscythe Всем yeah I know dota has way more egregious CC
1293 с Verdant Всем let's say that there's a piece of software that just disconnects all my opponents for say 4 seconds
1299 с Verdant Всем if I use this to win, I'm cheating, right?
1304 с Pscythe Всем yes
1310 с Verdant Всем yeah, but now I go play amumu
1315 с Verdant Всем and it's totally fair somehow
1317 с Pscythe Всем I think CC is ok in moderation
1323 с Verdant Всем even though his ult is the same thing
1336 с Verdant Всем the kind of moderation you need to balance cc as strong as these games have isn't something you'd like
1358 с Pscythe Всем probably
1365 с Verdant Всем a late game stitches hook can instantly win a game, but you would never play stitches if missing a hook instantly killed stitches, would you?
1379 с Pscythe Всем but if you had 0 CC in the game then it would suck
1393 с Verdant Всем not really, there are tons of ways to balance and moderate it
1407 с Verdant Всем and replacing cc with other interesting designs leads to way more interesting matches
1422 с Pscythe Всем I don't think the basic moba formula works very well without CC, it adds a lot to the game
1446 с Verdant Всем you should try playing one without egregious stuns sometimes, it's really fun
1448 с Verdant Всем ton of counterplay
1458 с Verdant Всем little positioning wiggles in fights actually matter
1472 с Verdant Всем the reason it doesn't work in mobas is because they're all tuned for it
1484 с Verdant Всем everything is extremely fast, low time to kill, extremely potent slows on every skill
1493 с Verdant Всем one hit kills everywhere
1507 с Verdant Всем dashes and flashes and invincibility and resurrection mechanics and stuff
1523 с Pscythe Всем hots is way lighter on that stuff than League
1526 с Verdant Всем it's all nonsense that exists because other nonsense exists
1536 с Verdant Всем hots is just about as bad as league on the balance front
1556 с Verdant Всем if blizzard was still developing this game it'd be just as power crept as league is
1569 с Verdant Всем deathwing with all his weird mechanics and constant unstoppable, hogger with all his weird shit
1573 с Verdant Всем chogall in general
1593 с Pscythe Всем deathwing is considered pretty weak right now
1621 с Verdant Всем it's a testament to how overtuned the game is that an unstoppable champ that can deny objectives by himself for minutes at a time without any risk
1625 с Verdant Всем is considered weak
1627 с Verdant Всем xD
1637 с Pscythe Всем chogall is notoriously unintuitive to counter, but at the higher levels he's also considered pretty weak
1653 с Verdant Всем high level gameplay mostly doesn't matter
1660 с Verdant Всем 99% of moba players suck
1679 с Verdant Всем have you ever played halo 2?
1683 с Pscythe Всем no
1694 с Verdant Всем it's a lot like brood war in that there are some very quirky bugs
1701 с Verdant Всем that make it impossible for humans to master
1707 с Verdant Всем shooting and reload combos and stuff
1721 с Verdant Всем it's right up there with counterstrike for the most competitive shooter
1735 с Verdant Всем when the team that designed it were asked what they were designing
1742 с Verdant Всем they said "mario party for shooters"
1753 с Verdant Всем nobody makes a good competitive game on purpose
1763 с Verdant Всем they make a fun game first, and it happens to be well designed enough to be competitive
1774 с Pscythe Всем do you think brood war is more competitive than starcraft 2? starcraft 2 lowers the theoretical skill ceiling by miles
1778 с Verdant Всем that's why starcraft 2 ran like 40x the tournaments of dota, with 16% of the viewership
1804 с Verdant Всем brood war is an objectively better designed game than sc2
1811 с Verdant Всем some of it is by accident due to stuff like muta stacking
1822 с Verdant Всем some of it is on purpose because it has very little power creep compared to sc2
1829 с Pscythe Всем in terms of lowering the skill floor and skill ceiling
1842 с Pscythe Всем do you think the stuff starcraft 2 did was bad?
1852 с Pscythe Всем like, being able to select 500 units at once instead of 12 for example
1854 с Verdant Всем in terms of multiple building select and camera hotkeys?
1861 с Verdant Всем no, those are okay
1867 с Verdant Всем most of sc2's problems are balance issues
1879 с Verdant Всем blizzard just completely lost the plot
1881 с Pscythe Всем those lower the skill floor and ceiling though
1884 с Verdant Всем shortly after wol launch
1887 с Pscythe Всем is that bad for the game?
1895 с Verdant Всем yeah but there's a long way between that and hots
1906 с Verdant Всем bw is like, a human body cannot physically do this
1921 с Verdant Всем whereas hots is like, we're removing one of the three things you do in this game
1922 с Pscythe Всем also
1922 с Verdant Всем lol
1946 с Pscythe Всем well, no one ever got close to the skill cap in hots so I think it's ok
1973 с Verdant Всем requiring that people learn basic wave management is a long way from requiring that people be able to pull off 400 apm combos
1978 с Verdant Всем for minutes at a time
1983 с Verdant Всем to snipe spider mines with goons
2016 с Verdant Всем sc2 is a bit more on the hardcore side of games still
2021 с Pscythe Всем have you noticed anything else about this mod?
2039 с Verdant Всем think I've seen what I need to so far, it's pretty impressive
2043 с Pscythe Всем ok
2047 с Verdant Всем if we clean up these install issues, and port the maps and heroes over
2052 с Verdant Всем it's got real potential
2082 с Pscythe Всем porting the heroes is going to take a very long time
2097 с Verdant Всем if you guys are going to want to stick with most of the gameplay of hots I can stick with it
2110 с Verdant Всем but there's a reason hots never saw much popularity, and it's not because league or dota are good
2123 с Verdant Всем they're rolling dumpster fires too
2130 с Pscythe Всем yeah, we don't want to change major gameplay features
2143 с Pscythe Всем we don't want to do big reworks
2148 с Verdant Всем I'll probably have to set you guys up a standalone site then and just be hands off for a lot of it
2153 с Pscythe Всем we do want to make changes where we feel like heroes are lacking
2184 с Verdant Всем It's not a good idea to target what you feel is lacking
2189 с Verdant Всем and buff it
2202 с Verdant Всем that's the mistake all these games make that leads to their deaths
2205 с Pscythe Всем "lacking" as in
2210 с Verdant Всем when do you think starcraft 2 was more popular
2221 с Verdant Всем when david kim nerfed medivacs because marauder drop play was so strong
2232 с Verdant Всем or when david kim buffed medivacs because "lul stim medivacs"
2238 с Pscythe Всем this hero has 3 talent tiers with an obvious best talent, and a 4th where all 3 are boring and do basically the same thihng
2248 с Verdant Всем if there are 4 talents
2254 с Verdant Всем and 1 is obviously better than the others
2265 с Verdant Всем which one is the problem, and what's the easiest way to fix it?
2270 с Pscythe Всем depends
2274 с Verdant Всем it doesn't
2282 с Pscythe Всем ok, what's the answer then
2289 с Verdant Всем if something is overpowered, it's the problem
2295 с Verdant Всем if you don't want power creep, nerf the problem
2299 с Pscythe Всем I didn't say overpowerd, it's just better than the other talents
2313 с Verdant Всем if it's picked disproportionately to its peers, it is by definition imbalanced
2325 с Pscythe Всем it's imbalanced relative to to the other talents
2330 с Pscythe Всем but not relative to the kits of other heroes
2335 с Verdant Всем yeah, so it's the problem, and needs to be nerfed
2341 с Verdant Всем otherwise what's the point
2343 с Pscythe Всем no, it depends
2355 с Verdant Всем if it's not imbalanced relative to the kits of other heroes, it won't be played
2363 с Verdant Всем so you have 2 problems then
2372 с Verdant Всем your imbalanced talent, and another imbalanced hero somewhere
2414 с Verdant Всем if you want to see what happens when you buff underused stuff to solve balance issues
2421 с Verdant Всем just look at league or hots or starcraft 2
2435 с Verdant Всем league has been doing it so long that they actually had to increase the durability of everything recently
2439 с Verdant Всем because time to kill got so low
2450 с Pscythe Всем so like, I have a talent tier with A, B, and C
2462 с Verdant Всем if any one of those works in most situations, something's wrong
2466 с Pscythe Всем A is way better than B and C, but the hero with that talent isn't overpowered, they're fair
2475 с Pscythe Всем if you nerf A, the hero will suck
2489 с Verdant Всем you need to nerf A, and find out why the hero sucks compared to other heroes
2512 с Verdant Всем much safer to nerf than to buff
2521 с Pscythe Всем rip core

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