| Время | Игрок | Кому | Сообщение |
|---|
| 66 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
I mean the ui is just
superb |
| 76 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
this is lightyears
ahead of anything
else I've seen made
in the editor |
| 83 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it just works |
| 86 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
It's all copied from
HotS |
| 98 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
yeah but have you
actually tried doing
like any of this |
| 102 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's a nightmare |
| 109 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yeah I know, it's not
easy to port |
| 126 с |
Verdant |
Союзникам |
let me look at one of
these other lanes |
| 130 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
are there XP orbs? |
| 136 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
apparently not |
| 140 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that's good |
| 142 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
not really a big deal |
| 151 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
orbs are a huge deal,
it's great that
they're gone |
| 156 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
why? |
| 168 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's one of the worst
changes blizzard made
to hots |
| 177 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
? |
| 179 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
very little downside
to grouping as 5 and
roaming for kills |
| 188 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
they don't change the
game that much |
| 192 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
because you still
have a chance to get
some portion of the
XP if it doesn't work
out |
| 194 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
they do |
| 203 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
balling up as 5
should be very risky |
| 213 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
do you mean the big
xp orbs or the 25%
ones that stick
around? |
| 224 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
I mean the ones that
stick around after
the mob dies if
you're not there |
| 230 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yeah those barely do
anything |
| 231 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that you can pick up
after the wave is
gone |
| 235 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
they're pretty much
just placebo |
| 238 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
what o.O |
| 241 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
no they're not |
| 259 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
if you actually watch
a replay you get a
completely
insignificant
fraction of your xp
from them |
| 271 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
there's no such thing
as an insignificant
fraction |
| 280 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it'd have to be like,
less than a quarter
of a percent all game
|
| 289 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
compared to what
you'd get being in
the lane |
| 298 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
those things
completely changed
the dynamic of how
most maps are played |
| 304 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
says who? |
| 308 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
me, lol |
| 331 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you think it's
healthy gameplay that
instead of knowing
how to split and
manage waves, most
teams just roam as 4
and double soak, or
4-1? |
| 363 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
well if you actually
count up how much xp
you get from them,
it's so small that it
doesn't matter for
90% of games |
| 370 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it matters |
| 380 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you shouldn't be able
to get XP without
being there for the
minion death |
| 392 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
I mean, I challenge
you to send me a
replay where those
globes swung a game
them |
| 396 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
then* |
| 401 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
they significantly
change every match |
| 419 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
well then the
challenge should be
easy |
| 420 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the point of having
multiple lanes is so
that you have to
choose which one to
be in |
| 432 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you shouldn't be able
to reap the benefits
of being in 2 lanes
at once |
| 438 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
why would you ever
want that lol |
| 448 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
why even have
multiple lanes at
that point |
| 451 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
what do you mean you
shouldn't be able to
be in 2 lanes at
once? |
| 466 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
in hots, right now,
the dominant strategy
on towers of doom |
| 469 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
is to run 4 bot |
| 476 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
and one person double
soaks mid/top |
| 479 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yeah |
| 486 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
and that was true
before globes |
| 490 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
reaping the benefits
of being in both
lanes at once |
| 495 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's more forgiving
with globes |
| 507 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it shouldn't be a
thing at all though |
| 511 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
doublesoaking either
with your offlaner or
with the 4-man has
been dominant since
the game came out |
| 524 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the point of multiple
lanes is so that you
have to choose which
one to be in |
| 538 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if you can get
rewarded for both at
once there's no point |
| 550 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
the point of multiple
lanes is to provide
multiple focal points
on the map that you
must dedicate
resources to at any
given time |
| 556 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
yeah |
| 564 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
and if you can be in
multiple focal points
at once, there is no
choice to make |
| 576 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
other mobas have so
little map mobility
that you physically
cannot walk between
lanes fast enough to
get all the minions |
| 577 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the point of strategy
games is that choice
should have downside |
| 585 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if I choose to be
here, the downside is
that I am not there |
| 597 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
and that's still the
case in hots, it's
just different |
| 603 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
yeah that's part of
why other mobas have
way more players than
hots |
| 605 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
in LoL you have 0
choice |
| 614 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
in LoL you have
plenty of choice |
| 624 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
you pick a lane and
park yourself there
for several minutes |
| 633 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you picked like, one
of the few things in
LoL that actually
works haha |
| 633 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
occasionally rotating
to do something else |
| 644 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
in HotS you are
constantly moving
around the map |
| 646 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you are always
looking to rotate in
LoL |
| 655 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the problem is that
if you don't do it
right, you will be
punished |
| 658 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that's good |
| 668 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
in hots there's no
opportunity cost for
going anywhere |
| 680 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
lowers the skill cap
and shrinks the skill
gap |
| 699 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
there is aboslutely
oportunity cost for
going places, it's
just not missing
minions |
| 706 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
or, not always
missing minions |
| 712 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's very small,
that's the problem |
| 718 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
there's no reason for
orbs to exist |
| 749 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
also I don't buy the
skill cap argument
because even a
"lower" skill cap in
a moba like HotS is
still far and away
above what is humanly
possible |
| 755 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
so what difference
does that actually
make? |
| 768 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it makes a huge
difference |
| 774 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
any bronze can easily
double soak in hots |
| 782 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
that's skill floor,
not skill cap |
| 788 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that's the cap of
double soaking |
| 808 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
proper wave
management in league
is a diamond level
skill |
| 812 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that's what's at
stake |
| 828 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
in league you can
make diamond just by
knowing where to be
and how to manage
waves |
| 836 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's an added layer
of complexity |
| 847 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if there's no
downside to a choice,
it's not a choice |
| 847 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
sounds like an added
layer of tedium to me |
| 860 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
I greatly enjoy that
hots doesn't have
mechanics like that |
| 866 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
it's why i play it
over other mobas |
| 876 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you can have that,
but you can't also
have a competitive
game |
| 881 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
uh |
| 882 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yes you can |
| 890 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
the skills to be
competitive are just
different |
| 892 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if a game is hyper
casual and easy to
master, with a low
skill cap and no
skill gap |
| 899 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it can't also be
competitive |
| 910 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
we had HGC for a
while, no one was at
the skill cap of HotS |
| 914 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
no one |
| 916 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
not a single person |
| 921 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
was even close to the
skill cap |
| 925 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
hots never really had
a chance |
| 944 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
went the way of most
blizzard games,
mismanaged into
oblivion xD |
| 951 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
well yeah |
| 960 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the talent pool all
playing other mobas
is no excuse to have
bad design though |
| 1007 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
I think it may be the
loading of sounds
causing these hitches |
| 1009 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
hard to say |
| 1044 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
diablo's Q sucks in
this version |
| 1063 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
but it's not really
fixable |
| 1072 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
point and click stuns
are still pretty good |
| 1090 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yeah but like, try
comboing your Q into
E |
| 1100 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
yeah |
| 1114 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
just about any stun
is going to be strong
though |
| 1121 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that's the nature of
removing someone
else's control |
| 1123 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
it feels way worse
than normal diablo |
| 1129 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
normal diablo is
busted af xD |
| 1139 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
he's fine |
| 1161 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
winning by removing
control from other
players in
competitive games is
a fairly recent thing |
| 1164 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
imo not a good thing |
| 1179 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
do you mean in games
in general? |
| 1184 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
or what |
| 1192 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's mainly in mobas
and arena shooters
that have a lot of
moba mechanics |
| 1203 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
but older competitive
games didn't really
have any mechanics
like that other than
death |
| 1219 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
I mean it literally
all comes from
Warcraft 3 |
| 1241 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
wc3 had tons of units
on screen, stunning a
few isn't as game
changing as a stun in
a moba |
| 1248 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yeah exactly |
| 1254 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
but then DotA 1
existed |
| 1270 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the stuns are bad in
dota too |
| 1277 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
here, watch |
| 1279 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
and that was based
off of WC3, and then
the moba genera just
exploded |
| 1290 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yeah I know dota has
way more egregious CC |
| 1293 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
let's say that
there's a piece of
software that just
disconnects all my
opponents for say 4
seconds |
| 1299 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if I use this to win,
I'm cheating, right? |
| 1304 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yes |
| 1310 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
yeah, but now I go
play amumu |
| 1315 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
and it's totally fair
somehow |
| 1317 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
I think CC is ok in
moderation |
| 1323 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
even though his ult
is the same thing |
| 1336 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the kind of
moderation you need
to balance cc as
strong as these games
have isn't something
you'd like |
| 1358 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
probably |
| 1365 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
a late game stitches
hook can instantly
win a game, but you
would never play
stitches if missing a
hook instantly killed
stitches, would you? |
| 1379 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
but if you had 0 CC
in the game then it
would suck |
| 1393 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
not really, there are
tons of ways to
balance and moderate
it |
| 1407 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
and replacing cc with
other interesting
designs leads to way
more interesting
matches |
| 1422 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
I don't think the
basic moba formula
works very well
without CC, it adds a
lot to the game |
| 1446 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you should try
playing one without
egregious stuns
sometimes, it's
really fun |
| 1448 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
ton of counterplay |
| 1458 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
little positioning
wiggles in fights
actually matter |
| 1472 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
the reason it doesn't
work in mobas is
because they're all
tuned for it |
| 1484 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
everything is
extremely fast, low
time to kill,
extremely potent
slows on every skill |
| 1493 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
one hit kills
everywhere |
| 1507 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
dashes and flashes
and invincibility and
resurrection
mechanics and stuff |
| 1523 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
hots is way lighter
on that stuff than
League |
| 1526 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's all nonsense
that exists because
other nonsense exists
|
| 1536 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
hots is just about as
bad as league on the
balance front |
| 1556 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if blizzard was still
developing this game
it'd be just as power
crept as league is |
| 1569 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
deathwing with all
his weird mechanics
and constant
unstoppable, hogger
with all his weird
shit |
| 1573 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
chogall in general |
| 1593 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
deathwing is
considered pretty
weak right now |
| 1621 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's a testament to
how overtuned the
game is that an
unstoppable champ
that can deny
objectives by himself
for minutes at a time
without any risk |
| 1625 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
is considered weak |
| 1627 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
xD |
| 1637 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
chogall is
notoriously
unintuitive to
counter, but at the
higher levels he's
also considered
pretty weak |
| 1653 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
high level gameplay
mostly doesn't matter |
| 1660 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
99% of moba players
suck |
| 1679 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
have you ever played
halo 2? |
| 1683 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
no |
| 1694 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's a lot like brood
war in that there are
some very quirky bugs |
| 1701 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that make it
impossible for humans
to master |
| 1707 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
shooting and reload
combos and stuff |
| 1721 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's right up there
with counterstrike
for the most
competitive shooter |
| 1735 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
when the team that
designed it were
asked what they were
designing |
| 1742 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
they said "mario
party for shooters" |
| 1753 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
nobody makes a good
competitive game on
purpose |
| 1763 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
they make a fun game
first, and it happens
to be well designed
enough to be
competitive |
| 1774 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
do you think brood
war is more
competitive than
starcraft 2?
starcraft 2 lowers
the theoretical skill
ceiling by miles |
| 1778 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that's why starcraft
2 ran like 40x the
tournaments of dota,
with 16% of the
viewership |
| 1804 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
brood war is an
objectively better
designed game than
sc2 |
| 1811 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
some of it is by
accident due to stuff
like muta stacking |
| 1822 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
some of it is on
purpose because it
has very little power
creep compared to sc2 |
| 1829 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
in terms of lowering
the skill floor and
skill ceiling |
| 1842 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
do you think the
stuff starcraft 2 did
was bad? |
| 1852 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
like, being able to
select 500 units at
once instead of 12
for example |
| 1854 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
in terms of multiple
building select and
camera hotkeys? |
| 1861 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
no, those are okay |
| 1867 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
most of sc2's
problems are balance
issues |
| 1879 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
blizzard just
completely lost the
plot |
| 1881 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
those lower the skill
floor and ceiling
though |
| 1884 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
shortly after wol
launch |
| 1887 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
is that bad for the
game? |
| 1895 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
yeah but there's a
long way between that
and hots |
| 1906 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
bw is like, a human
body cannot
physically do this |
| 1921 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
whereas hots is like,
we're removing one of
the three things you
do in this game |
| 1922 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
also |
| 1922 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
lol |
| 1946 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
well, no one ever got
close to the skill
cap in hots so I
think it's ok |
| 1973 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
requiring that people
learn basic wave
management is a long
way from requiring
that people be able
to pull off 400 apm
combos |
| 1978 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
for minutes at a time |
| 1983 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
to snipe spider mines
with goons |
| 2016 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
sc2 is a bit more on
the hardcore side of
games still |
| 2021 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
have you noticed
anything else about
this mod? |
| 2039 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
think I've seen what
I need to so far,
it's pretty
impressive |
| 2043 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
ok |
| 2047 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if we clean up these
install issues, and
port the maps and
heroes over |
| 2052 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it's got real
potential |
| 2082 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
porting the heroes is
going to take a very
long time |
| 2097 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if you guys are going
to want to stick with
most of the gameplay
of hots I can stick
with it |
| 2110 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
but there's a reason
hots never saw much
popularity, and it's
not because league or
dota are good |
| 2123 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
they're rolling
dumpster fires too |
| 2130 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
yeah, we don't want
to change major
gameplay features |
| 2143 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
we don't want to do
big reworks |
| 2148 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
I'll probably have to
set you guys up a
standalone site then
and just be hands off
for a lot of it |
| 2153 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
we do want to make
changes where we feel
like heroes are
lacking |
| 2184 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
It's not a good idea
to target what you
feel is lacking |
| 2189 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
and buff it |
| 2202 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
that's the mistake
all these games make
that leads to their
deaths |
| 2205 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
"lacking" as in |
| 2210 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
when do you think
starcraft 2 was more
popular |
| 2221 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
when david kim nerfed
medivacs because
marauder drop play
was so strong |
| 2232 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
or when david kim
buffed medivacs
because "lul stim
medivacs" |
| 2238 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
this hero has 3
talent tiers with an
obvious best talent,
and a 4th where all 3
are boring and do
basically the same
thihng |
| 2248 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if there are 4
talents |
| 2254 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
and 1 is obviously
better than the
others |
| 2265 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
which one is the
problem, and what's
the easiest way to
fix it? |
| 2270 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
depends |
| 2274 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
it doesn't |
| 2282 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
ok, what's the answer
then |
| 2289 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if something is
overpowered, it's the
problem |
| 2295 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if you don't want
power creep, nerf the
problem |
| 2299 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
I didn't say
overpowerd, it's just
better than the other
talents |
| 2313 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if it's picked
disproportionately to
its peers, it is by
definition imbalanced |
| 2325 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
it's imbalanced
relative to to the
other talents |
| 2330 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
but not relative to
the kits of other
heroes |
| 2335 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
yeah, so it's the
problem, and needs to
be nerfed |
| 2341 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
otherwise what's the
point |
| 2343 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
no, it depends |
| 2355 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if it's not
imbalanced relative
to the kits of other
heroes, it won't be
played |
| 2363 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
so you have 2
problems then |
| 2372 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
your imbalanced
talent, and another
imbalanced hero
somewhere |
| 2414 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if you want to see
what happens when you
buff underused stuff
to solve balance
issues |
| 2421 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
just look at league
or hots or starcraft
2 |
| 2435 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
league has been doing
it so long that they
actually had to
increase the
durability of
everything recently |
| 2439 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
because time to kill
got so low |
| 2450 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
so like, I have a
talent tier with A,
B, and C |
| 2462 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
if any one of those
works in most
situations,
something's wrong |
| 2466 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
A is way better than
B and C, but the hero
with that talent
isn't overpowered,
they're fair |
| 2475 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
if you nerf A, the
hero will suck |
| 2489 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
you need to nerf A,
and find out why the
hero sucks compared
to other heroes |
| 2512 с |
Verdant |
Всем |
much safer to nerf
than to buff |
| 2521 с |
Pscythe |
Всем |
rip core |
